This is great. Symbiote Suit is great in any high activation build. (X-23, Ghost-Spider, Miles with Peter and Joaquim etc...) But Pietro is definitely the best. I can see this shredding anything once set up. The only concern is if the scenario hits too hard early, but that kind of bad luck can undo the best plans.

I have always heard encounter cards average to 3ER, which seems right to me. I've never done the math myself however.

I think quite a few heroes can get a net benefit from Symbiote Suit, even if playing the house rule that you always get the extra encounter card in multiplayer. Drax, She-Hulk, X-23 and even Thor have some decks where you can effectively activate 5 or more times a turn. I usually only play expert though, never heroic, so that's like a totally different beast.

It's been many months, but I made a quicksilver pool deck that leveraged Symbiote suit. It was the very first deck I made that made me say "Hey, maybe the extra encounter card is worth this!"

Quicksilver is a very powerful hero

I haven't listened to that episode but thought the discussion in the comments and write-up about the cost of encounter cards was an interesting topic.

As someone who has genuinely been through every encounter card of every villain and mod set (and standard/expert set) in the game multiple times, assigned values to everything and averaged them, the average "cost" of an encounter card is closer to 2.5 than it is to 3 in my opinion, but 3 is a safer bench mark to use when calculating the value of extra encounter cards gained from player-side effects for multiple reasons.

Firstly, you don't want to just break even. 2.5 ER of value for 2.5 ER of cost leaves you with no net value. Secondly, the downside of encounter cards is typically worsened when revealing multiple encounter cards together. Dealing with multiple problems asks for more, and a lot of encounter cards combo. A big minion into Gang-Up is painful. Two extra villain activations back-to-back sinks games immediately. Getting confused AND a crisis side scheme popping up puts the main scheme in major danger. Etc etc.

And finally, encounter cards vary significantly - you could get something that costs 2 ER to mitigate OR something that takes 5 ER to mitigate. This depends on the villain, mod set, and luck. So sometimes it pays to treat encounter cards as a little more deadly than they might be.

Ultimately you only really lose games of Marvel Champions due to encounter cards - sure an activation with a lot of boost icons or boost effects is bad, but every turn you should be expecting the threat to go up at the start of the villain phase and then a villain activation. You typically build decks and play around that expectation. Encounter cards introduce random new problems that - even if indirectly (by backing you into a corner so the regular threat ticking up/villain activation gets you etc) - are what lead to game losses. So it pays to treat them with respect and caution if we're getting serious about winning at high difficulties. There is a reason that encounter card cancels are so high value.

To talk about Quicksilver and Symbiote Suit directly, with his readying he definitely makes better use from Symbiote Suit than most heroes. His low base hp really appreciates the cushion of +10 too, especially as the boosted defense for him (that he tends to use more than most heroes) helps it last longer. And in many ways Quicksilver is a combo character - boost stats with Maximum Velocity, then ready as much as you can, spending Friction Resistance as efficiently as you can among the sequencing of cards and abilities - and what this means is that the +1 hand size from Symbiote Suit helps to enable bigger combos as you may find an extra combo piece or some kind of card draw that finds even more ways to ready etc!

There are some other factors that affect its value up and down but I already wrote a book here with this long comment. Very cool to see this deck, really makes me want to play it!

One thing I noticed is that you reference Nick Fury, Sr. in the write-up, but have the original Nick Fury in the actual deck. I assume that Nick is supposed to be the other Nick? Or are both supposed to be there? I think both are pretty good for him, so I'd say no major harm either way!

VT, actually referenced you in the video to back up my same claim that an encounter card is about -2.5 ER. We didn't bring up the compounding nature of encounter cards that you mention - I think that is a good point.

Nice deck overall though. As I said in the video, I'm a bit too risk-averse to play the Suit even with Quicksilver, but he's as close as you can get. The rest of this deck seems to support it perfectly! Thanks for the shout out!

@VillainTheory

Starting with 1 extra card in hand = +1 ER Bonus stats = +0.5 ER per activation (up for debate)

If we use Endurance as a benchmark, +10HP would be equivalent to 4-6 ER, but as a one time benefit. I consider this to offset the cost of the Symbiote Suit itself.

So if an encounter card is -3 ER, you would need to activate 4 times to break even, but Quicksilver hits this pretty easily

1x defense 2 x attack/thwart on hero turn And any one additional activation breaks him even.

I really love playing him in 'Pool because Stick-To-Itiveness combos with Friction Resistance for a free additional ready every turn, and you get additional value from the Hazard Icon itself (thanks to Laser Swords and "I Got This")

I think the strongest argument against the Hazard Icon is the swinginess of the encounter cards. But for many encounter cards, the -ER that they incur goes DOWN as your stats go up. Side schemes and minions take fewer activations to remove when you attack and thwart is higher. The extra activations, as well, are "mitigated" by your increased ability to withstand/ignore/undo whatever is on those encounter cards. The only thing that is unaffected by the shifting dynamics are attachments.

Just one Coach's opinion, though, and I'm open to having my mind changed.

@Stretch22 I'll have to try and find time to listen! I think I'm generally also more risk-averse too, and find the 4-cost tempo hit of the Symbiote Suit pretty hard to manage sometimes.

@Footballcoach That basically all checks out to me! The only thing I'll say is that considering the boost to our stats as gained value AND the fact our boosted stats make encounter cards easier to deal with is more or less the same thing in my eyes - so I think you have to weigh things by one side or the other, or you're applying twice as much value to one part? But generally very much agreed, lots of readying generally offsets the downsides and gives us plenty of value.

On a separate note not aimed at anyone, just some thoughts since about the card, Symbiote Suit and many other cards in general that boost health or block damage are pretty interesting in that their value changes with the scenario but we as a community tend to discuss their values as static a lot of the time. I think that matters.

A Tough status card is worth a lot less against a 1 ATK villain than a 3 ATK villain. In that same way, Symbiote Suit's +10 hit points are probably going to block a whole extra attack against 1 ATK villain compared to a 3 ATK. Standard and Expert are relevant too, with the extra encounter card from the Suit being less dangerous when Expert mode's Under Fire (a serious game-ending threat) isn't in the encounter deck rotation.

@VillainTheory you know what, you're absolutely right. I WAS counting the stats twice. I'm a Symbiote Suit apologist, but I understand the opposition. You bring up a good point about health/toughs being variable value depending on the scenario... but it makes my brain hurt at 7am UST and I'll have to think more about it later.

@dkilkay You are absolutely correct about early pressure being difficult if you are getting hit early (especially with a 9 HP Hero). Games when on the first turn you play the Suit with one of the 5 doubles or when you play a Armored Vest have a much higher win rate because they keep QS alive long enough to build up.

@mv2392 It seems like 2 is too low and 2.5 or 3 may be a better approximation.

@VillainTheory I defer to you when it comes to encounter cards taking more resources to deal with so I will leave 2 ER in the description for posterity, but my mind is changed to 2.5 since I trust your research. However, I disagree that the goal is not to break even when playing a card. There are many cards I play that just break even while others gain me either tangible (but often situational) advantage or perceived extra value depending on the Hero being used. For example, Daredevil is a great ally for Drax because Drax has a thwart of 1. I would normally consider an ally that can thwart for 2 and then block as worth 3 ER but it is murkier because Drax would need two activations to thwart for 2 (not even counting the opportunity cost of not using a better attack stat). But if DD defends which is usually worth 2 ER, then a fully vengeful Drax would not draw a card. So, while I think the idea of ER as a way to compare cards in general is useful, the strengths and weaknesses of the Hero seem to skew those numbers for me based on need. I think that this also fully supports your point about the variance in encounter cards depending on the villain, mod set, and luck.

I LOVE your analysis of Quicksilver as a combo character and the significance of an extra card each turn to help you find more combo pieces. I think that this compounding value works for the hero as well as for the villain. The downside of revealing multiple encounter cards can be worse as in the examples you gave but they also often cost you health in some way and Symbiote Suit’s interaction with Quicksilver defending for free every single turn makes it feel like 10 HP immediately and then "keep" 1 extra HP each turn. The other half is that you can now attack/thwart for 4 which is often enough to deal with a second problem. What really makes this deck work are the three What Doesn’t Kill Me since one or two per deck pass is enough to keep you topped off so that a big boost doesn’t end your game. But it is prudent to fear and respect that escalator when it comes to encounter cards which is why cancel cards are so valuable. Speaking of cards that cancel particularly bad cards, Black Widow has fallen out of favor over time but she is twice as likely to be useful in this deck than in others because of the Hazard Icon. That is what I love about this game is that likely game states for a player deck (and villain deck if you customize based on them) alter the card math to where it is not just a “play the most efficient cards” game. There is some joy for me when I finally find a home in a deck for an unused card – not out of pity but because it is somehow worth more here than in most other places.

And you are correct about playing the deck with both Nicks! As I said, I rotate the allies based on the villain and I had him in instead of Snowguard. Good catch and thank you!

One note on the value of encounter cards, looking at IPAC, Star-Lord, Sentry and others, the game developers value encounter cards at roughly 2. But I also agree that this is too low. Which is why Star Lord is considered a weak card and IPAC is basically a last turn push card. Not worth the cost otherwise.

There may be something too that, or they undervalued and then stayed with that valuation to prevent power creep.

@Footballcoach I think that this deck could have been named “Maybe the extra encounter card is worth this!" And a Super-fast guy with a lightsaber sounds like a blast!

I agree with you about the swinginess of the encounter cards. And great point about how encounter card impacts can be dependent on Hero stats like side schemes/minions, mitigated by your health, or affected by resource generation like attachments.

@Stretch22 Nothing wrong with being risk-averse! And adding the Suit to your already true heroic games would certainly increase the risk of being Surge Chained to death. I used to think of Symbiote Suit being a late game risky push since dropping it early on other heroes has not ended well for me. So, when I was reviewing which first turn plays contributed to victories with Quicksilver, I was not expecting to see that Armored Vest, Symbiote Suit, and Deft Focus were the cards that resulted in the most wins. Although I would have expected Deft Focus, the other two were surprises. But I added a second copy of AV and DF along with the Power in All of Us to increase the chances of getting two of the three cards in play on the first turn. Since you can look at 14 cards before you flip up, this happens with surprising regularity. The deck immediately became more consistent. This was really just a way to say that if I am going to play on Heroic difficulty, you may need to spot me ten health, an extra card per turn, and a permanent +1 to all my stats. :)

@sinkhymn One small thing I'm always keen to talk about with the Protection ally Daredevil and other similar allies that tend to thwart for 2 and then block, such as Brother Vodoo, is that you can just thwart twice with them. It effectively ends up being 4 threat removed for 3 ER, which is the same as For Justice but in Protection, which is pretty neat and especially desirable for those heroes like Drax who lack thwarting when played solo. It takes two turns to get the 4 threat removal with a 2 THW ally so it's not as "bursty" as For Justice, but you can also divide the thwarting into two instances of 2 which makes it more flexible than For Justice.

So there are pros and cons compared to the Justice event, but seeing as you could also just block with Daredevil if you need to in an emergency or even tickle out 1 damage if it makes the difference between defeating the villain or a nasty minion or not doing so, I'd argue it's better.

(Daredevil also doesn't take a mental resource to get maximum value like For Justice. I suppose Daredevil takes an ally slot but reaching the maximum allies is a pretty rare event for low THW heroes and Daredevil is gone in two quick uses anyway!)

But overall I'm agreed that supply and demand alters values. Low thwart heroes will happily pay more for threat removal since they really need it, even if it's better to aim for more efficient means. And if the last main scheme is about to go over, it doesn't matter what hero I'm playing - I will pay basically anything to get the threat down and it will be the correct play (unless I could win through damage that same turn). So as you basically say in the write-up, you can definitely argue that Turn 1 Quicksilver is happy to pay more for what Symbiote Suit offers, effectively fixing all his basic ability stats AND his low hp at once!

was expecting this to be a repurpose deck but love seeing the suit. strongly agree that for some heroes it does a lot of work

@dr00 I think a lot of people would agree with you on Repurpose being great with QS!

@sinkhymn indeed, and not many would agree with us that symbiote suit is great. thanks for fighting the good fight

Also to be noted is that the 'ave cost to deal with an Enc-Card' increases with the player count. This is due to the average threat placed with 'side schemes'. In 1up, it is close to ave 3 threat for 1 SS Enc-card In 4up, it is closer to ave 10 threat for 1 SS enc-card. This is the same reason why One Way or Another is often deemed a poor play in 4up, but perfectly fine in 1up.

This is a great deck don’t be scared to take it over 40, I have stun gun and energy barrier in the deck and also run repurpose. Repurpose gives it to you for the round so when it comes to the villain phase, you’re free to defend and still have some bonus on it.